For those who really dare to delve into the mind of a madman.

Tuesday, March 01, 2005

Screw Affirmative Action

I seem to be on a roll with controversy, so let's add another chapter of controversy: affirmative action (GASP!). I don't mind talking about something as ridiculous as affirmative action, so if you don't want hear the downside, don't read it.

Affirmative action is set up to help minorities in the workplace and higher education. Minorities are anything human except white males, and occassionally white females. But definately white males. I find myself in this category of white males and I can't stand affirmative action simply because it is discrimination. Why is it discrimination? Well, it gives preference to one person over another. Isn't that what the 60s was all about? I do believe so, but you don't hear black people complaining now.

If I were to apply for a job and a black woman were to apply for a job at an affirmative action employer and I was more qualified than she was, but she was at least qualified, she would get the job. How is this fair? I have more qualifications than she does, but since the company has some illegal quota system going on, I will not get hired. I really wish someone could explain how this is fair. I don't want to hear the argument that blacks (using the word blacks since they are not from Africa, therefore not African-Americans, maybe their great-great-great something, but not the current generation) went through slavery. And? So, what you are telling me is that because some group was discriminated against at some point in time they should be given preference for jobs? Well, that would be every single race, religion, culture, etc. that you can think of. So that argument doesn't work, unless you give preference to everybody. Hey, that's an idea. Another, how about the there are not enough minorities in the workforce. Well, lets see. Blacks make up only 12% of the population. So by that number, should they make up half of the workforce? I don't think so, try again. Jobs should be given primarily on the basis of qualifications: who ever is the most qualified gets the job. Simple. Done with that.

Colleges who use affirmative action to generate diversity only hurt themselves and the students let in who are underqualified. Look at Michigan. They gave points on their applications if you were a "minority." So, someone who is not a minority has to overcome the points given to a minority in order to go to Michigan. Will someone please explain how this is fair? It isn't. You cannot argue for a system that gives points to a minority, just for being a minority. Doesn't work like that. Admissions to colleges should be race free. Meaning, that they use your records, your transcript, standardized tests, application essays as distinguishing from those who are accepted and those who are not accepted. But then the argument of the unfair school systems and how they hold the black man down. No, I am sorry. Too much Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Contrary to popular belief, the black man is holding the black man down. If they would get off playing the race card for everything, they could then take responsibility for their actions and we would never have to hear this debate. It's about accountability, which some people in this country do not believe in. I also think black people are looking to wrong people for inspiration. Instead of looking at adulterous reverends and NBA bound high schoolers, they should look at people like Condoleeza Rice and General Colin Powell, although Powell is a little soft for my liking. It's time for accountability so we can get away from affirmative action.

A side note, Equal Opportunity Employers who claim to be Affirmative Action employers are hypocritical. What they are saying is: we hire all equally, unless you are a minority then you get preference. That is not what "Equal Opportunity" means. That means that you employ whoever has the best qualifications regardless of race, gender, religion, on and on. This is the proper way to go about life. We base our country on equality. It's time that everyone start to learn it. Affirmative action is not based on equality, and I say violates the United States Constitution. So, immediately do away with it and all the hypocrisy it represents.


Anonymous Lauren said...

"because some group was discriminated against... Well, that would be every single race, religion, culture, etc. that you can think of."

I think that is an excellent point!!!

4:47 PM

Blogger jacob said...

May I just say--


5:01 PM

Anonymous Ashley said...


7:08 PM

Anonymous Jamie said...

<>If I were to apply for a job and a black woman were to apply for a job at an affirmative action employer and I was more qualified than she was, but she was at least qualified, she would get the job. How is this fair? I have more qualifications than she does, but since the company has some illegal quota system going on, I will not get hired.<>

I just recently talked to my dad about this, because he's in the process of hiring a new guy at his work. The man they want to hire is a white guy who is the most qualified for the job, but because of affirmative action my dad had to interview a woman before he could offer the man a job. My dad was feeling pretty bad about it because he was keeping this guy hanging for another week while they flew in this woman, whose time they were wasting because she was less qualified anyway. So your point was a little off - it's not that they didn't hire the guy because he was white (and more qualified) while the woman was female (but less qualified). It was that they had to waste a lot of time covering their asses because of affirmative action.

Affirmative action is totally ineffective because there's always ways to get around it - like as long as you interview the women and minorities, you can still hire the white male.

Anyway, on another one of your points, I can't stand Jesse Jackson - I'm from Greenville, and he butts in there all the time. When I was in high school I drew an editorial cartoon for the school paper about Jackson always playing the race card and the principal wouldn't allow it in the paper because it was "racist." Racist my ass. Since when is pointing out the obvious racist?

8:03 PM

Blogger Steven Zimmerman said...

I wrote a "Please Shut Up" letter to Monsieur Jackson in my school paper. Go over to my blog and go down a few posts and you can read it.

Ricky, want to give up this blog and start posting on my website as my political analyst?

2:03 AM

Blogger tha' coug said...

That's sound pretty good to me, Steve. Just let me know when you figure it all out.

8:49 AM

Blogger Azelma said...

Some good ideas here: but aren't quotas unconstitutional anyway? I'm almost positive that they are. (Wild guess: Berkley vs. Bakke? It's been two years since AP Government...)

Personally, I think that race should not even be indicated on college applications. I am all for equality and agree that affirmative action *had* a purpose; but it has served its purpose and now it is hurtful to all parties involved. It makes it difficult for an equally qualified white male to get a position and it is degrading to African Americans because it insinuates that they are not capable of getting the position on their own merit. I think my (African American) friend said it best when she told me that she wouldn't want to go to a school that was going to let her in because of her race. She wanted to get in because she was SMART, not because she was African American. Now there's a mentality that I can admire!

In response to Lauren's comment about email addresses, mine is EnjyJehan at netscape dot net if you're so inclined.

-Katie :)

7:19 PM

Blogger Melissa said...

So some colleges give you a point if you're a minority. You earn points if your grand-dad went there, too. Is that fair? How many good ole white boys have gotten into nice universities they otherwise wouldn't have on account of a family member pulling strings or having a "legacy" at the school. Funny that we don't hear you railing about the unfairness in that situation.

"Contrary to popular belief, the black man is holding the black man down." Oh, so it's the black man's fault that his ancestors were enslaved for hundreds of years in this country, and then actively discriminated against ever since? Even if your ancestors were immigrants from other countries, they faced less social prejudice than blacks have, and had more opportunities to work with. (As ignorant as you've shown yourself to be already, I'm guessing that as a middle class white male you probably have little sense of what it's like to be black.) Trust me, white males are not losing out on jobs. White males still control virtually every position of power in this country.

4:28 PM

Blogger tha' coug said...

Enslaved for hundreds of years? Does that mean 100, 200, 300, 400? How many is that? Slavery was an institution that was terribly wrong, but does it have to be an issue now that it is "hundreds" of years in the past?
Why don't you look at the Jews? Their situation was far worse than the black man's. Do they make excuses to get more points on an application? I don't think so. How do you know what class I am? I could be lower class kid going to college to get a better life for myself. Your little comment about pulling strings, I think that is wrong too. But they don't have a little box next to it on the application to give you extra points. And it is not just one point, it was 40 points when you needed like 200 to get in. So race is equal to 20% of whether or not you go? Absolutely ridiculous. Maybe my "ignorance" is just your "ignorance" preventing you from saying that I'm right.

4:43 PM

Anonymous Angry White Female said...

Stop complaining. White males have been oppressing women, minorities, and homosexuals for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. And now you have to put up with something that can be called discrimination and you are all upset about it? Welcome to the club white males.
"Slavery was an institution that was terribly wrong, but does it have to be an issue now that it is "hundreds" of years in the past?" Yes it is still an issue. Check out heritable wealth.
"Your little comment about pulling strings, I think that is wrong too. But they don't have a little box next to it on the application to give you extra points." Of course they don't have a box for that. Look, we are all supposedly equal on paper. However, women make 76 cents for every dollar a man makes. African-Americans had "separate but equal" schools - which we all know were not equal. Legally it looked equal, but in reality it wasn't. Therefore, you have to have the government step in and make sure minorities and women get a fair chance.
"How do you know what class I am? I could be lower class kid going to college to get a better life for myself." And if you were a lower class kid, then obviously you must have gotten some scholarships - which are based on need as well as merit. But if my parents make more money than you, but we have the same qualifications, you are getting the scholarship. Is that bad as well? No, it's good because someone who wouldn't have otherwise had the chance to go school got to.
And don't finish off your reply with that I won't admit you're right. That's so close-minded and don't give the options for comments on your blog if you don't want to debate anyone.

6:14 PM

Blogger tha' coug said...

So only white males are the oppressors, feminist. Women also get time for maternity leave, which men don't get. Separate but equal was illegal, did I ever mention otherwise? I didn't get as many scholarships as I should have because I am from the middle class. There are also numerous loan programs out there for people who don't have enough money. Your next argument is going to be about college should be free to everyone. No, it shouldn't be. College should be earned, based on grades alone. Not race, not gender, not class. So what is argument for the "minorities and women" who don't need the government to do well? Are they just exceptions, or are they the ones who figured something out? Like maybe I need to quit feeling sorry for myself. Everyone has had to go through rough points in their life, you seem to forget that. If we start relying on the government to fix every inequality, we are going to into some socialist regime that will fail. Everyone has the opportunity to do well. It only takes some accountability and perspective. They need to respect themselves and raise the standards for themselves, not wait for someone else to put them on some pedestal. They need to look ahead to what they can do, instead of looking in the past to create excuses. Yes, I know there have been injustices against minorities and women. There are laws to protect against that. And yes the laws don't always work, but you forget to look at the alternative: a black man or woman not hiring a white man or woman because of their race. Is this not discrimination? You probably wouldn't give a damn about this because the white man has it coming to him, right? When settlers first came to America, the majority were poor. You see how long it took them gain wealth. It's not some overnight transition. Look around, everywhere you see are minorities and women in power and prestige. You need to get you anger in tune and figure out the real world or it will pass you by.

6:57 PM

Blogger Melissa said...

"Does it have to be an issue now that it is "hundreds" of years in the past?"

If it impacts the present, it is certainly a factor.

"Why don't you look at the Jews? Their situation was far worse than the black man's."

That's an extremely subjective statement. (Unless you'd like to back it up with facts and a logical argument, which is obviously not your forté.) And you were discussing African-Americans, weren't you? So that's what I responded with. The Jew's long history of persecution doesn't make African-American's history any less meaningful. Comparing the act of kicking a puppy for five minutes and the act of kicking a kitten for ten minutes doesn't make kicking the puppy any better does it?

Angry white female, you posted a link to a great article. (Kudos!)

"Coug," are you trying to use the word 'feminist' as an insult in your reply to angry white female?

Women get time off for maternity leave because women carry babies to term and then birth them, and then are expected to tend to the child after it is born. Men don't get maternity time off because THEY DON'T BEAR CHILDREN.

"Everyone has the opportunity to do well."

Did you read the article that awf posted? Read it again. Think about it. Imagine if it *gasp* contained a kernel of truth.

"When settlers first came to America, the majority were poor. You see how long it took them gain wealth. It's not some overnight transition."

No, it wasn't an overnight transition, but the European settlers that came to America essentially took all the wealth they had from the millions of Native Americans that had been settled there for hundreds of years. Speaking of minorities who get shit on, and all.

"Look around, everywhere you see are minorities and women in power and prestige."

Cite your sources, back up your vague statements with fact. Who? Where? Generalizations get you nowhere.

10:29 PM

Blogger Steven Zimmerman said...

Oh God. My brain. It hurts. These comments just further prove how stupid people can justify anything with rhetoric. Time for my two cents, which is worth more than your two cents because I'm a white male and you are a dumb woman that obviously needs this stuff explained to you very slowly (I'm exaggerating, but man I hope that offended you. Ass)

1) Fact: No black I have ever known has ever been a slave at any point in their life
2) Fact: No white person I have ever known has ever been a slave owner at any point in their life
3) Fact: Public schools are open to everyone, blacks and whites
4) Fact: Good grades can win you a scholarship and get you into college. Good grades come from hard work.
5) Fact: Blacks and whites are created equal
6) By that logic, both blacks and whites have an equal chance of getting good grades, depending on their OWN PERSONAL CHOICE as to whether to work hard in school or not
7) Therefor, scholarships should be awarded to the person with the best grades, AND BY NO OTHER CRITERIA AT ALL, because everyone has an equal opportunity to get good grades, as we have just proven
8) This way, everyone is responsible for their own success in life, white or black
9) If you do poorly in school, its not because you are a woman or a black, its because your dumb ass didn't study
10) If blacks were truly being oppressed, none of them could succeed. If none of them could succeed, Colin Powell, Condoleeza Rice, Jesse Jackson, several hundred athletes, several super popular actors (Morgan Freeman, Will Smith, Samuel L Jackson, Cuba Gooding...), a ton of shitty rappers, and many others WOULD NOT HAVE SUCCEEDED
11) Fact: They DID succeed, even though they were black
12) By that logic, if they could succeed, any black could succeed
13) How? By spending your time productively working towards your future instead of bitching that the government doesn't give you enough free hand outs.

I'm sorry, slavery is over. The 60's are over. Affirmative action is a virus that has overrun our entire Government. Blacks are just as equal as whites if not MORE SO, given all their special "perks" that only minorities get. It is THEIR responsibility to make something of it, not ours. If they can't do that, thats their own fucken problem.

That braindead article makes the comment that white people had the option of becoming rich because they were white and that black people were denied that "path" in life. Well yea, but that was 50 fucken years ago. Its a new era, people. Today, blacks have every opportunity open to them, they just need to fucken do it themselves and not expect it to be handed to them. Thats my major problem with AA: it makes blacks think they should be handed stuff instead of working for it. And YES it is being "handed to them" because whites NO LONGER have the ability to "steal" it from blacks. In the 60's, yes, but not anymore.

Its a lot like how welfare, more often than not, conditions people to not have a job. Hey, if I was getting a free check for not working I know I wouldn't get a job. But thats a different argument all together.

3:01 AM

Blogger tha' coug said...

About citing sources: this isn't an essay I am writing for class. If I had the time to include sources I would do so. Look at Steve comment, he sums up everything I need to say without saying it again.

8:37 AM

Blogger jacob said...

do you update? because it does not seem to be...

10:01 PM

Blogger Melissa said...

You seem to have plenty of time to spew utter bullshit, I figured maybe you could take a few extra minutes to back up what you're saying and cite some sources. Otherwise, why should I believe anything you say? Your blanket generalizations have no merit to them if you can't prove 'em.

Steve (and Coug), you don't seem to realize that blacks still do not have the same opportunities whites do. Would it be wonderful if they did? Yes. Are things improving? Yes. But many blacks live in poor socio-economic urban or rural areas with shitty schools, unlike predominantly white suburban areas with excellent schools. How is that an equal opportunity education? [Yes, white people live in these conditions but blacks do so in disproportionate amounts.]

Doing poorly in school does not mean you didn't study. It could mean you have a learning disorder, or are having problems at home interfering with your ability to work, or you lack the time or resources to do well in school (you work a job to support your family and don't have time to study, or your family doesn't have time to do homework with you, or money to buy books). Perhaps your teacher's style didn't work with you. Maybe your school didn't challenge you enough and you stopped caring. It is ridiculous to assign a single factor or cause (not studying) to an effect (not doing well in school).

[And why are you two so rabid about grades being the only factor in scholarships? What about extracurricular activities, or hobbies and job experiences? What about community service or exemplary conduct? Do those not count for anything at all?]

Steve, your argument that "If blacks were truly being oppressed, none of them could succeed" is equally absurd. There are such obvious flaws to your huge blanket statements that I find it hard to believe you can't see the gaps in your logic.

How would you define "oppression"? That seems to be a key problem in our communication here. You seem to assume that because blacks are no longer legally enslaved that life is peachy for them and that they enjoy the same freedoms you do.

If you define oppression as slavery, for example, then your argument that blacks who are truly oppressed cannot succeed still doesn't work, since even in the harshest times of slavery there were blacks who had the strength and luck and opportunity to rise above the system and suceed (as businessmen or merchants or writers or those who helped fugitive slaves escape-- Frederick Douglass is a great example).

Lastly, jacob, are you talking to Coug?

11:14 PM

Blogger tha' coug said...

why don't you back up your sources, instead of "spew[ing] utter bullshit." i just cited that source. Let me guess it is because of the white man holding the black man down. That's what is all boils down to. About your whole argument with school and doing well. Let's see I parents split when I was in 5th grade. No biggie, happens alot. Well, I was then forced to switch school districts and so lost all of my friends. That probably doesn't count for much in your book, but I don't care what counts in your book. then in 8th grade, my mom had the fabolous idea of leaving town and going to florida. taking me with her. so now, i switch districts then state. so now none of those friends are going to be there anymore. because of my own will, i ended back home in charleston and back in the same middle i was going to. that didn't make matters any better because the divorce was still nasty. this is abbreviated, but it is to prove something to you. I DID FINE. I ended tenth in my class at a respectable 4A high school and got a full ride to C of C. So, don't give everyone some "bullshit" about having problems at home and can't do the work. The primary factor in getting a scholarship should be your grades. That doesn't mean those can't help, but I think you have a awesome gpa and good SAT/ACT scores then you should get a scholarship. Do you think it is fair for just black scholarships? or while we are at it: all black frat/sorority, all black miss universe, a state of the black union, all black groups (NAACP)? how is it not discrimination there? If i wanted an all-white frat, then I the NAACP would be on my ass so fast, thats if the college didn't kick me out first. So you can argue all you want for how much the blacks are being oppressed, but you forget that there is no way there can ever be equality with affirmative action.

One key point i didn't put in the article: how do you think it makes blacks feel to know that they might have gotten a job because of their race, rather than their performance. That idea ever cross your mind?

10:32 AM

Anonymous Lauren said...

I don't mind you being around because it's fun to argue with you about these issues, but if you are being sooo oppressed, and you don't like the way things are sooo much, then LEAVE! No one is making you stay in America! France is a liberal haven, go frollick amongst the trees there. I just don't see why if you are so miserable that you are staying here! Obviously its not as bad as you want people to think. Everyone that lives in this country is so blessed and lucky, but still people like you aren't happy until things are laid in front of you on a freakin' silver platter. Get over it! Its never going to happen here! I'm not giving you crap until you work for it and prove that you can be a productive member of society.

10:46 AM

Blogger Steven Zimmerman said...

All those things you listed, about how doing poorly in school could result from having to work too much outside of school, or having a learning disorder, or a broken family, or an unchallenging school, are all NON-RACE specific instances. All that stuff can happen to whites, or blacks, and therefor everyone is STILL on the same playing field. Everyone is STILL equal. Everyone is STILL responsible for their own success. You make it seem like only blacks have learning disorders or broken families, and thats a ridiculous exaggeration and an equally offensive stereotype.

And my example about how black people can succeed is perfectly legitimate, because they can, and many black people have. The only person holding you down is yourself.

12:54 PM

Anonymous Robin said...

This is getting pretty nasty. For the record, men are eligible for maternity leave under the family medical leave act.

8:52 PM

Anonymous awf - again said...

Lauren: Leave? This is my country too. And I voted so therefore I have a right to complain how my government works. Just because you aren't happy with some policies does not mean you should just leave, Liberals just want to make a difference and THAT IS OKAY. Our country was founded by some pretty radical ideas, equality (you know that fact that women get to vote), free speech (anyone?) and Affirmative Action was all started by Liberals - so shut up Lauren. You shouldn't just flee a country because oppression is going on. You want us in Iraq, don't you Conservatives? We didn't just leave - we fucking went over there to "liberate" Iraqis. So don't ever tell anyone to leave because they don't like what is going on, how about telling someone to get away from the computer and go protest instead. BAH!

BTW, on a semi-unrealted note: For my Feature Writing class, we have to write a trend feature story. I'm writing mine on political bloggers - so if you've got one ( a political blog) and don't mind me interviewing you, just email me ( I need Conservatives, Liberals, Moderates - everyone.

12:29 PM

Blogger Steven Zimmerman said...

For everyone one Republican I've heard say "If you don't like it, leave" I've heard ten Democrats say "Screw this, I'm running away to Canda." We'll stop telling you to leave when you stop offering.

1:03 PM

Blogger tha' coug said...

awf, you try to make the US look like a bad place to live. If it is so bad, I agree that why don't you just leave. you don't have to be here. yes, you have your rights, but when you start to bad mouth this country, go find another one because the US doesn't need people like that. i also find it funny that lauren is a woman and disagrees with affirmative action for minorities and females. maybe she has her head on right, and its time the rest of minorities and females do the same.

1:10 PM

Blogger jacob said...

Wow. I dont check for a few days and suddenley there are 23 posts and a raging liberal v. conservative battle going on, with affirmitive action and American life the bloody, torn battlefront....


6:52 PM

Anonymous Lauren said...

Here is a great article BY A DEMOCRAT about why men make more than women. Read it. You might be surprised.

11:22 AM


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